Join us for the Designers Show this week - a discussion on leadership habits featuring renowned author, motivational speaker, and leadership coach & consultant Jennifer Milius.

This event is ideal for anyone looking to elevate their leadership skills, from project managers to business owners. Jennifer's expertise will provide valuable guidance on improving communication, building stronger relationships, and fostering a positive work environment. We hope you can join us for this insightful and engaging discussion.

Introductions 00:01
Business Segment: Kevin's Story, Part 1 04:51
Jen Milius: RATS Downtown 12:25
Jen's Story: Removing the Rocks 14:16
Encouraging Others to be Leaders 18:33
Jen's book, "You Know It's A Verb, Right?" 21:19
Are there born Leaders & Followers? 22:05
Grappling With Leading Others 9:13
Ask Leading Questions 33:23
Be Present in the Moment & Communicate Openly 36:23
Advice for Emerging Leaders 42:19
Ask Questions! 44:12
Being a Good Industry Leader 45:52
What is the Future of Leadership with AI Technology? 48:07
How do you Balance Responsibilities of Leadership with Life? 52:20
Jen's Books & Coaching 54:30
Jen's Final Thoughts: Taking Risks 56:45
Rene's Final Thoughts: I Love Leading People 58:51
Wrap Up 1:00:08

welcome everyone to the designer show show number 101 can you believe it so yeah this has been fun we've been uh just enjoying putting these on so on today uh uh uh Renee or not Renee John and Robin are off doing some other things today so they uh won't be on the show but we've got Renee mckevin are joining us and our special guest Jennifer Melius is here with us today we're going to talk a little bit about some leadership things which uh Jen got a great story so I'm really excited about that oh I don't really we don't have any Big commercials for anything that we've got going we do have some courses that we're working on that will be coming up soon Kevin's going to be putting together the art of design course uh we've been talking about some really cool things that we're looking forward to doing and uh one of these days I'm going to pin Renee down and get him to do some Advanced courses so because I know you guys want to pick his brain so he's got lots to spare so he's he'd be good to go anyway Let's uh let me just show you uh real quickly I wanted to uh give you a just a smidgen of a introduction to Jennifer uh I met Jennifer only about five four months ago or something like that um she's part of a another group that I belong to so we've been talking ever since it's been good too great to know her um Jen has written a book um you know it's a verb right and I just finished it actually and actually listened to it while I kind of was going through the book at the same time a great way to learn by the way outstanding so uh you guys uh Jen's going to talk a little bit a little bit about this today so you you will uh you'll be able to find out more about that and then if you're streaming on the page here with us today uh let me show my screen and I'll talk about this again a little bit more sure screen got a comment here or anything yeah okay what do you got where do I find you on YouTube I think where do you find Jen on YouTube I think so oh okay well we'll uh we'll make sure we answer that before the end of the day in fact Jen if you want to go in and put a comment in there with your YouTube I can look it up while you're talking on Kevin so don't worry about that um so that would be no problem and uh so we'll go through that you can uh you probably have a link on your website too I would assume so if we go to your website I I haven't necessarily looked here but if you don't you'll get one added [Laughter] all right so um cool so that's just a Mini commercial and again I want to talk a little bit more about this the content of this book is excellent in um thanks it it reminds me all the time the in the one of the main reasons I wanted to have Jennifer on the show today was that everybody that watches the show whether you're a contractor or a designer you work for a designer it doesn't really matter what you do the bottom line is you're all leaders and because of what you do you're going through this process of helping people redesign their house new kitchen new whatever it is and you're working with trade Partners you're working with employees whether you own the company or not doesn't matter you're leading the process that goes into all of that so anything that we can do to learn more about how to be better leaders is really important so kudos to you for being here and watching this I hope you'll get a lot of information out of here and uh you can use some of that information in your business to create better designs better projects for all the people that you do work with and bottom line the bottom bottom line is as a good leader you're going to be you're going to be able to support your family a lot better because you're going to do a better job at your better better at your job so anyway welcome uh please let us know in the comments if you have questions let us know where you're from or what you're up to uh it's always nice to hear from everybody Herbert uh welcome to the show today where do you find yeah we'll get that link for you in just a little bit welcome from Sunny Virginia hey Doug how are you um and I believe Jen you don't live too far from Virginia I'm in Virginia yeah there you go so that's pretty darn close uh in fact I think you guys might see Jen at our next Summit the next march in the Outer Banks because she lives like an hour from there yeah so anyway welcome and uh so with that uh what I'd like to do is to turn it over to Kevin Uh Kevin is going to uh start with a little 10-minute segment um this is kind of our new format where Kevin gets to talk for 10 minutes we'll try to keep it to 10 minutes Kevin okay yeah it's been it's been one of my most difficult things is to try to figure out how to only talk pretending well if we just keep it one sentence you'll be fine yeah the license all right so all right so Kevin uh you're going to talk a little bit about your fall from a rewarding high paying career in subsequent regrowth as an entrepreneur and industry leader in the residential design build space I love that title that you said that's almost like you read that no not me yes I did because I could never remember that but anyway I'm going to turn it over to you in fact we're going to make you solo layout and you get to chat to everybody so how about it Kevin all right well hi everybody um for those of you who have met me it's good to see you again even if it's virtual for those who haven't I'm looking forward to meeting you someplace down the road so um thank you for joining and and participating today um because of the topic the subject matter of of uh Jen's talk um oh in in the idea of leadership um I talked a little bit with Jen in a previous conversation about where she came from and the the similarities between uh where she spent probably the majority of her career uh and where I spent the majority of mine which was in the corporate world that for me was uh it was a very rewarding thing I was very good at it I was very well rewarded for it it was all of the things that somebody could ask for except for the passion for me it was something that I was good at not necessarily something I loved and that question always comes to mind you know usually over a late night cocktail and a fire pit when you're contemplating uh is is it about becoming good at the things you love or as it become is it about becoming in love with the things you're good at and for me I spent the first 20 years of my career uh in the latter I was very good at it but I would find myself a little bit empty when it came to the passion so when the world changed on me which was in May of 2001 and for those of you old enough to remember it that was a disastrous moment in the technology world because the.com Bubble Burst I was at that time um at the Pinnacle of geekdom I was I was I had risen to a level of abstraction that um was kind of remarkable in that I was advising top tier CEOs um around the world about uh the future of this thing called the internet and how they could monetize different aspects of it I specifically I was an internet Network intelligence architect um I was a catchy term but a cap but it captures everything that was what I do did um so in that uh if you break that down obviously I was involved in the internet in 2001 which was relatively early and I was in an area that was exploring what you could figure out in the internet meaning what could we tell people about what's actually happening in this communication that takes place between between machines so for people who run giant server farms and for companies that are trying to figure out how to exploit the new environment the idea there was it was all about marketing and how could we target market That's A New Concept you know imagine that so uh that was great until the.com Bubble Burst and and everyone lost uh their jobs including me so in one five minute phone call I went from having a great career to having no career and I spent the next five months trying desperately to find a place in the world that somehow mimicked what I had done for the last 20 years and it was a devastating time it was very difficult until I finally gave up and changed course and thought who am I and what am I and how can I use that to become what I can sell and put food on the table for my wife and my two young children so although it was a very desperate time and uh followed by three very difficult years of of trying to figure out how to grow into a new position it was very rewarding in that I was able to overcome those things return to something that I was passionate about which is designing and building I've done that since I was a kid helping with my parents rental houses and learning to do everything there and I had won several Awards as a kid for doing things well um and I very carefully and slowly went from knocking on doors and asking if I could clean their deck this coming from someone who in 2000 was making a six-figure income and suddenly I was humbled and knocking on doors and asking if I could clean their deck so that was possibly a time where everybody should weep a little bit and grab a clean X and feel sorry for me but it was actually the the birth of a new career and the new career became entrepreneurial where the decks became fences and the fences became gazebos and the gazebos became enclosures and and as it went on I managed to continue to think in terms of what can I do how can I employ people to help me how can I grow this and become something in this new world ultimately uh ultimately it's it served me well and I've done things like um one national awards and um been an HGTV winner and and things like that that are they're really nice feathers in my cap but it all comes down to that that thing I was thrown into I didn't go in by choice I went in by circumstance uh the challenges were real and they were difficult steps to overcome I'm sure you guys can relate I'm sure some of you out there are singing the same song and uh and some can can relate in some way but in that in all of that the successes and the rewards uh were you know significant achievements and and significant um aspirations as well as accomplishments that uh you know I can I can only be thankful for that that put me in a position to be able to be talking to you today and hopefully be able to help some of you in your Journeys um with that I'd love to tell you all about my very long story later but because I'm limited to 10 minutes that's about all my time for today so do stay do stay in contact with me stay with the show contact me directly if you would like I'd love to speak to each one of you but right now I would like to introduce Jen and her position so Jen are you ready I'm ready all right one one thing to get us started is that uh Dan has has just finished your book and I'm sorry but I have not so I'm going by what Dan said when he said that I'm supposed to ask you about rats downtown yes tell me more about that thanks for having me thank you thanks for having me and thank you for the question because rat's downtown was actually something that my co-author Wayne really wanted to include in our book and it is an acronym for respect all trust some Do no harm and so the idea is really about like being at the Crux of leadership when you think of that it's about people it's about taking care of people so when you are coming from that mindset you are truly taking care of people you are looking at your your employees or your your contractors those who you're working with even if they're not an employee you're looking at your your clients and your customers and how can you respect all trust some and Do no harm to No One you don't want to hurt anyone with what you're doing so you're keeping all of that in mind and it's something that you're doing with each action and each engagement it's not one and done that's cool yeah I I wanted you to ask that question because I found that intriguing easy to remember that's really cool and and it's so important it's so important it is it certainly uh you know covers three things that that I believe in and and it wraps it all up into one little uh memorable statement so love it yeah and you know we could rename that rabbits downtown so oh yeah oh so uh so I I said a little bit about my background where I came from the corporate world and then transitioned into this new world and conversations that you and I have had you had a similar background before you launched into your into your current career can you tell us a little bit about that sure thank you uh so I worked in corporate for 20 years and then started my business in 2014. so this August would be nine years and as an entrepreneur but in corporate I worked in different Industries I worked in healthcare I worked in publishing and I worked in heavy manufacturing so and majority of the time when heavy manufacturing I spent time on the construction team working with the uh the team who would be responsible for the refueling complex overhaul for the aircraft carriers and that was a that was simply heavy industry yeah yeah it was a really phenomenal experience to be able to do that and my job was predominantly in that space and really throughout the whole experience was being a bridge helping people with Communications helping people present themselves present messages to best represent themselves and their company and connecting with their team and throughout the entire value stream if you will so they thinking about how you can work with everyone who has a direct input into what you're doing versus just your one particular piece so um I love the concept of the bridge the visual concept of the bridge as a consultant you're not necessarily only talking to the one individual you're talking to the individual and essentially everyone that they associate with to to better help them Bridge those gaps so nice yeah yeah thank you I looked at it that basically you know I had different roles within each Organization for sure but you know really we were all working for the same company and we're all on the same team and our goal was to provide the best result that we could for that customer and and by extension it's clients so sometimes the person buying isn't always the person using and you want to be thinking of both of those in the same space and when you remember we're all in this together versus saying oh wait well that's a whole other person's area not mine and it's their fault or what have you that this isn't working no no we're all here we're all working through the same common goal let's work together to get to that solution you know it was wonderful to talk to you about your story and when we chatted last week and you talked about you really didn't know much about Shipbuilding but that really wasn't your job to do the shipbuilding and the comment you made about your job was to get the rocks out of the way yeah um that was really a great comment and that's really true for a lot of what we do in our industry as a good leader you're gonna you know do a good set of plans to me a good set of plans is is getting a rock out of the way because now you got something that you can follow and uh you know if you don't have a good set of plans yeah you're going to be up against these Boulders all the time trying to figure out what the hell you're supposed to do so you know if you want to use that as an analogy you know great but to me that makes a lot of sense so I just thought I'd throw that comment in there and to your point when I started at the uh the company I started in engineering and I didn't I was not an engineer I was not a designer I was a person with a Communications background and a master's in business and so my job was to I would listen to my team and say okay I hear what you're asking me I realize the technical pieces but then I would ask a few leading questions to say this is what I think you need from me am I on the right track got it I know how to solve to work through this and solve that problem and that's how I continue to show up in that business so when I was working in process Excellence or working down in the uh on the program for the Abraham Lincoln the execution team even you know those were all the things that I did I would sit with my generals or my construction team saying I know I don't have that particular skill set but I can remove rocks help me understand what's going on and I can do that the thing that you're talking about really is finding that that um that core strength that you have within you that can allow you to cross barriers really use that strength in a lot of different capacities um one of the things that I found really interesting and I ask you about so now I'm going to ask you because others are probably doing the same thing is that and you know where I'm going that's it when when I when I uh you know when I met you and we talked about your ideas of leadership and the book and all those kinds of things I ask you so how does your website which really references uh how to inspire women to write a book about their world and their lives and their Journeys how does that bring you back into this and the book so tell me how all that transition and where did the book come from I love this question I'm so glad you asked it because really it it is a reflection of growth throughout you know honoring yourself and tapping into okay what are my strengths and what are my abilities and following those things that light me up too so all of those skill sets were kind of brought to bear in corporate I didn't realize I had some of those until corporate but then when I made the link to start my business I started with children's books I started writing about my two children's books and then it evolved into coaching because I did so much coaching so much leadership coaching or leadership development throughout my entire corporate career I was the person who always had a chair beside me and somebody was in it saying hey could you help me with this or hey how might I go about that and it didn't matter what level of the company they were in it mattered that they were trying to make a better create a better result drive a better connection to to bring that Vision to Bear even more so and I could be of service so that's what I did and sometimes it was also helping that person realize the gifts that they had were already with them they just needed some help unlocking them and communicating them and there's that message in the website yes yes because that's really the that's really the the golden theme if you will of what I'm about it's really helping people to remember the the greatness the light that they had within them and to be able to show up and own that so remembering your skill sets and communicating them and owning that message whether you're in a meeting with your client and you're sitting at that table so you own the space and you trust that you have what it you have what it takes to be there or if you don't know you're asking questions so that you can learn so you can be a better a better Steward of what you're trying to do you know it's all a part of all of that really and so as that my business grew I had met someone who also wrote children's books also was into leadership and we were both running two different leadership podcasts and he had been listening to mine and said hey what do you think about us co-authoring a book thus created you know it's a verb right which went through several iterations on on book title for that matter by the way I loved that it really is true for us because we looked at that as lead as a verb and it's something that you must do each time each engagement and if you don't get it right guess what you get to do it again because you are constantly growing and constantly refining and so really it's just all evolved over time um it's so so uh it's been my experience that um I know I know when I was hiring people I I had a dear friend who was uh an engineer who was out of work he was he he was very good at what he did but he hadn't had a job in a while and he was looking and uh I talked with him about why don't you why don't you just join me you know why don't you just work with me and he just very quickly said Kevin I can't handle the risk I can't I can't take that that's not something that I I need to work for someone my question then to you would be I think some people I don't know if the term born leaders is is fair but I think some people um see their place in leadership and some people see their place following and I think both of them are very very good places but I also think that for instance for for me I I was a follower until I was forced into a position of being on my own and being entrepreneurial and then I became a leader so do you believe and or can you expound on do you think that there are people that are foreign leaders and born followers and then there are people who can really who want to really change that and move into a leadership role and Doug I'm going to add to that Doug has a great question here too that kind of goes along with that a little bit you know the hard part of the big organization is the politics involved in that you know and you might have people intentionally trying to hurt other people or maybe not even intentionally they're just that's what they do um so I think that kind of goes a little bit hand in hand there yeah so I don't see a born follower or a born leader I think they're actually a relationship that in order to be a good leader you must be a good follower you have to I believe that when you have a greater gift you have a greater responsibility and so you do well with what you have and then more is given and but then more is expected so it's something that you continually cultivate and grow now there might be some innate strengths that you have that you can't help but be there but you still have to hone them you still have to to use them and put them to work because if you don't use them well they're not being developed so I think anyone has the chance to become a leader because quite frankly if you are talking with someone and you may not have the title of leader but you have people who listen to what you are suggesting and buy into it and try something different or you're the person who seems to be able to pull people together and get them to kind of understand how to do something and get them on board you're leading you just might not have recognized it so I think that sometimes we expect a title versus recognizing you already have some of those skill sets I've always uh I've had I've had a belief throughout my career especially in a position where I was in the position of following rather than leading but I've had a belief throughout my career that you can accomplish Miracles as long as you don't care who gets the credit I think that I think that there is uh there's an opportunity for leadership from below I think that there are people who um who just lead as a matter of being part of the team and because of their um personalities uh because of the way that they approach things and and their interaction with other people they are leading even when they may not even know they're leading but but you can recognize it you can see those attributes so somebody who's listening that may be part of a I think I think we as a society are uh trained to think that leadership has to do with climbing the corporate ladder I don't think that's true I think leadership has to do with uh your ability to guide and persuade and shift and change the the things in the world and the perspectives around you and influence what you can are you with me on that or no Kevin I'm going to add something too um I was a project manager for every company I've ever worked for and I don't think it was because I wanted to be a project manager that wasn't it it was um I had kind of a holistic approach to how things ran and I kind of and my take on it was largely Equity based it was having to people around me understand what their worth is to accompany and how their actions directly relate to everybody else's benefit or not right and and explaining that and pulling that and getting Gathering these resources together suddenly became a family where we're all benefiting each other so it was it was just a matter of you know in my mind I had this structure I understood how things were working I didn't want to be a leader but I just started talking to the person next to me and and trying to get them on board let's all get towards the common goal and um you know those people that just want to climb that's not necessarily the approach I would take I don't know check your thoughts on that Jen actually I I love what you're both are saying so first off um when I hear a title I do think a title is it does sort of quote help in a sense but it's only because the organization said so but that person in the job has to earn the trust of those who are they're working with and it's a two it just because that person became my boss and thus in theory my leader that doesn't mean that we automatically have this relationship that says I buy into that it means that now we have to work at this together and you as the leader you it's incumbent upon you to help those who you are leading to feel safe with you they want to feel safe with you and Renee you were talking about being a project manager I'm with you I was too for large trade shows if you think about the trade shows like those like the bath show The Kitchen shows that you're talking about where you have a big booth and you've paid money to be at this booth and you're going to be there to represent your business to get new leads and what have you I ran trade shows like that I help people to manage booths like that and no one worked for me every I was responsible for the entire project to make everything happen and have it a successful event and it was one of those that was an ARF there was no C type situation on these you either got it right or you failed miserably and it didn't matter and all what was required upon from me was to have everyone who had some kind of connection to it by in that this was important to do and these were the takeaways that were important for those who were attending so they understood the so what and my job was to help get people on board with what that was so that they could not just get on board with attending but supporting in some way when needed that was leadership it wasn't necessarily the title that said oh by the way you're the project manager for this event great it was my job to help create the interest the enthusiasm and the the willingness to participate for our for our listeners um the the the idea of uh grappling with that term leadership or or your position or whatever it may be um it's it's really it's really something that I think you struggle with throughout your career um you may at some point uh find your your place and decide you're in your your happy home and that's it but I think a lot of times you're you're kind of questioning uh you know why am I here and what can I do and sometimes you're taking more of a pessimistic approach like I can't seem to do anything you know I seem to I seem to be failing at what I'm trying to do I know this is just a sideways comment but I'm trying to spring it into something for you to talk about which is that I was I was one time uh positioned with somebody he was absolutely the most negative person I have ever met in my life Bar None um I I couldn't believe that that they would put me with him because I'm the kind of the eternal optimist so when I approached my superiors and asked them why in the world that they would position me with him when I'm when I'm the way I am they said because you're the way you are you know they they wanted me in that position which was an equal position to him but they wanted me there to help influence and balance the negativity that came from the other guy who was also very talented just really negative uh so when when when when one day he came in and banged on my wall and and and told me he was going to kick my ass about something uh I I uh I looked at him and I said you're going to kick my ass then I said I said you know you got to look at it this way it can't get worse and he said it can always get worse so there was there was a guy that pushed so when you when you're talking to people on the call who may be in a position where they're on in a team um and they're you know grappling with similar either insecurities or uh contemplations about how to how to interact with the team what what are what are your suggestions what are your thoughts about that but the first thing I would think about is one understand where what each person on the team's strengths are each person has their own gifts talents abilities and gifts and they're going to be different for yours they might be similar but they're still going to be a little different so when you really understand what each person's abilities are and how they might fit into the bigger picture that is a big win because then you can look and say okay are they being utilized are those skill sets being utilized does that person feel like they are really contributing because it could be that they may not it could be that they may not feel like what they're doing matters because they're not seeing how that makes a difference but if you can see it and you can make that connection because you can communicate it tell them I think that communication is so important and it's not just about you talking to them it's about you actively listening so that means you're really listening with your heart you're listening not just for sound you're listening with your whole body you're paying attention to non-verbal language you're paying attention to all of those nuances so that you can actually understand what that person is communicating and then you're able to come at it from a okay how might we all come together here because if everybody was like us that would be really boring I'm just saying I mean and I even side note I've even talked about this with little kids when I go talk about picture books I will say you know my one cat Einstein he has one little personality and my one cat Mushu her personality is a little different and they each show up as their own little personalities and their own books and if everybody was like Einstein that'd be boring and if everybody was like moo that'd be boring you need both you need all of it and understand and appreciate the differences because it's actually those things that will create a much better result let me just add one thing real quick Kevin um kind of on that whole broad topic about listening uh what's one of the best things designers do with their clients to get answers anybody ask leading questions okay very good that's what a good leader does okay and they let the people they let everybody that's involved in the project answer those questions and then we can talk about them if the leader just comes in and just dictates everything that has to that they're going to do you have to do it like this and then blah blah yeah it's hard to get buy-in from people I think I think um I think one of the most powerful attributes of uh someone in any position and therefore um by Nature a leader uh is to ask the questions um I think I think you you are way stronger as a questioner than you are as a dictator or answerer so um I know I I try to use that approach all the way from an interview with a client to a to a co-worker to a subcontractor to a Tradesman to whatever else it doesn't you don't really gain anything by walking in and and I mean the question's got to be something other than what the hell you know um agreed agreed take it a little different approach like oh well I wouldn't have thought of doing it that way that's interesting right can you tell me why you went that way one um you've got their attention on something that you may be trying to direct them on and two you might find out that your their way was better so it's uh it's it's pretty interesting approach no another thing to that is when you when you hear someone driving something you know whether it's when you're working on a project you're working through a design for instance when you see the challenge or you're hearing a client say something and if you even if all you say is and what else or is there something more you want to add that second part that extra part actually helps you to unpack a little deeper there might be something else happening there and because you've said and what else or and what else is coming up for you or what else are you thinking with that that gives them a little more space to elaborate if they do and that's almost kind of driving down a little bit deeper for you to on to get a little bit more information that might just be the piece you needed or the other side of that is you might find out that there is nothing else in which case you've defined the you've defined the end of that you know what you need to satisfy so it works in both it works in both ways exactly you got information that you needed yes yeah so that's really all of that's really fascinating I I could uh just go on and chat with you all day about these things uh are there are there things specifically that you want to make sure we're covering in your time today you know I am just really glad to be having this conversation it's really fun to me because I think that when people hear we get to talk about things that help build people up I think that that's a good thing because it it's a ripple effect that you can have and so you know one of the things is to remember that when you are working with your person you know when you are with your client working with your team or what have you to be present with them so actively listening is one but that requires you to be present really be present so not on your phone not at the table with your head down with the book in your hand or something against the wall like you're not interested actively engaging actively being present because that communicates that you are interested in being part of that solution even if you might not agree on exactly how to get there it means that you are actively a part of it and you genuinely care because really you're in the people business I know you're in the construction the design business but you're really in the people business because you're helping people I think we have a particular challenge today with the use of Technology uh now when you are now when you're glancing at your watch you're not necessarily checking the time it used to be that if you glanced at your watch it sent a signal to people that you either felt like their time was done or that you were on that you were on the move you know that you had something that was more important than them and that becomes um a challenge to a conversation I don't I don't care whether it's a client or whether it's uh you know a business partner it sends a message that that you something else is more important than you are now um you could just as easily be hitting the record button on your watch to catch something that's important in the conversation or you could be looking at your phone to take a note or to look up a phone number or to give them information so how do you mix technology uh in in the world of guiding people and and collaboration and um what's the word I'm thinking of persuasion and things like that how do you mix technology in there um adequately and professionally and the way that you hope it's going to come across I would communicate it so if I felt like I needed to use my phone for a note use my phone to communicate something or grab my iPad for instance right there I give me a hold on a second let me show you let me bring this in let me or I'd like to capture this let me record are you okay with me recording this so I've communicated I'm telling you what I'm doing I'm not just recording on the Fly and and then they're going what are you doing did you just record me yeah just tell them communicate because they might go you know what I really appreciate that could I get a copy when you're done absolutely I'm happy to but if they don't know what you're doing by saying I'm by asking hey do you mind if I do this or hey wait let me go do this you're showing you're leading by example you're communicating what you are doing and you're showing what you would like done as well I think I think I I you know completely agree and I think the other thing that that communication does is uh you have uh defined the use and and the fact that you may be interrupted um these things may happen uh I try to let people know that I'm going to do my best to give you my undivided attention but I do use technology to sometimes find the answers to things that you're you're thinking about so if I happen to glance at my smart watch or or my phone it's probably not because I'm ignoring you in fact you've got my attention I'm just trying to help you get to the next step um so sometimes it just defines the the parameters of conversation as well yes and checking in saying okay hold on you said to demonstrates that you are respecting the fact that you're still in front of someone else whether it's through a virtual situation or in person you're still remembering this is what's important I'm still trying to support as best as I can with if I need that other piece but by communicating and saying this is what's going on it's it's amazing sometimes how something that seems simple to us or we don't always remember to do you know well let's say it's even saying thank you thank you for your time or thank you for this information thank you for this call thank you thank you is helpful Marnie uh Vincent posted that uh that body language is just as important as what you say yes it is it communicates a lot I've been in those meetings with contractors that you talk trying to go over things on a project they said oh got a call hang on I got to take care of this message oh let me go take care of this people interrupt all the time it's just like come on man sometimes valuable too right um that's exactly my point yeah that's exactly my point or the the other thing which uh depending on your gender is a kiss of death or uh at the very least it's a uh it's a total disregard which is that uh if you're in a group of three uh make sure that if you're the one talking talk to both of the other two uh you know it's it's it's uh if you don't uh and I you know you find it in in typical gender biases and things but you also find it just if there's an obvious um there's an obvious person taking control of the conversation therefore you only talk to them um then you're doing an injustice to the other person you're sending another message that is a negative as well okay but let's go to your list for a second here okay you had sent me yes um and you had some great questions on here okay one of them just pops out to me and that would be Jen what advice would you offer emerging leaders who are just starting out in the industry or people that have been doing it for a while and could use a little help totally understand I appreciate that um engage in solution focused conversations you know when you're focused on the solution what we're trying to achieve it's not about finger pointing you know it's not well so and so didn't give me this information or you know if so-and-so had just gotten this or this system this software is not cooperating or what have you whatever the other distractions are just let's focus on what we're trying to accomplish because that's actually what we're driving towards so not finger point but focus on the right direction or this on the the conversations on the direction for be solution focused um another one that I know we've talked about throughout the conversation but it Bears repeating is identifying positive skill sets from every person from the people that you're working with there's something positive about every person that you are working with even those who you might find a little cantankerous they still there's positive skill sets there's positive attributes that people bring and when you see them and when you acknowledge them you will unlock something within that person and you will get more because they feel seen and they feel valued and they feel heard so just by you taking the time to get to know that person and seeing that and recognizing it that person feels seen and hurt and you have uncovered information that might help you further down the road or with the project that you're working on because now you have again more information to work with and remember it's okay to ask questions it's one of the things I like about your book is that you give lots of questions to ask at the beginning at the beginning and the end of each chapter like your honesty check you know thank you you've listened chapter in and ask those questions so that's it's really it's really helpful if you if you were just thinking look at the list questions oh I don't know it's just it's a good reminder good checklist I get distracted by anything under the Sun so getting asked questions is a great way to keep me in it because I mean that you know this can happen and I'll be like ah I love it I get it too but to your point about the end of chapter honesty check questions when Wayne and I put the book together that was something that he had expressed a specific interest in including it was important to have those questions and I was bought in I loved the idea and so as we put those questions together Our intention was so that it didn't really matter where you were along your journey it mattered that at that point in time when you read that particular chapter it's how you answered those questions for yourself so when you go back and you reread it a month later six months later two years later you're in a different position you're in a different mindset now how do you answer those questions because now you've grown too you know each of us has to find out what works for us individually and you just mentioned that changes over time it does yes so definitely yes yeah so so I know um uh I think it's I think it's important to recognize also that um being someone who is uh unbelievably good at what you do doesn't necessarily make you a good leader there's some there's some really strong um recognized industry leaders uh that that were a pain in the ass to work with you know uh yeah you know it might be uh it might be Tiffany or it might be Frank Lloyd Wright or uh it might be frank Geary who knows but you know they may have been fantastic industry leaders but our industry leaders necessarily good leaders of people you know it depends because to me the skill set that's required to do the technical piece whatever the technical piece is you know whether it's learning a software whether it's the drafting the designing whether it's you know quite honestly communication is a skill set you know understanding the technical pieces to put together the written word their technical pieces for it when you understand those skill sets that's one thing then leadership skills they're different skills they're and they are used to help further strengthen and leverage the technical skills but they are still different skills to have it's a it's another form of communication it's decision making it's recognizing you know it's knowing when to take action and knowing when to stop and if you will think it's all of those different pieces that kind of go into play I I am loving this conversation really I mean I could go on and on but I'm checking the time and and I'm wondering Dan um do we need to wrap up about now how are you feeling at this point yeah we're getting close uh I would love it if if we have some great comments here people uh thank you for putting those in and if you have some questions for Jen now is a great time to post them um she's got some a little bit of knowledge about this topic so and she's not afraid to talk you know so yeah I'm good I'm good so yeah some questions from from listeners would be wonderful well I'll ask from one of yours what do you see in the future of leadership in the industry in the construction industry um you know how do you think the emerging Technologies and other Trends will shape the role of leaders moving forward and the background of that question the reason for that question is the uh is the ons set on set and onslaught of uh artificial intelligence so how do you think that the emerging technology is going to play into the future of leadership my perspective is with at least AI you know I realized that there might be some benefit to that because you might work a little bit faster and you might glean some ways to phrase something or think through something but from my perspective I write every piece out that I do 100 me 100 human every piece everything that I write is a hundred percent me so I would rather have my intelligence moving through my communication if it helps to create an inspiration that's one thing but from my perspective I would rather use what I'm bringing to the world from that standpoint so I think it's really however you choose to look at that but recognize there's different pros and cons but not to discredit what you are doing and how you can strengthen and communicate your own message yeah I think uh you know I'm I'm with you I think that um that artificial intelligence remains artificial uh so uh the you know the the possibility is mind-boggling and I could see a time because you know good decisions and bad decisions are are made at the same time you know around the planet so I could see a time where we're reporting to a machine I could see a time where where it seems the conversation is is being discussed with a machine um I think that uh the uh the ability for us to complicate comprehend and and deliver a human result remains a huge Advantage for Humanity so um it's going to be an interesting move when when the the roles of corporations are shifting to embrace artificial instead of real but there's it'll be really interesting to see where it takes us personally I think the first major move is going to be some kind of AI based getting you to a risk Response Group that you resonate with for questions that you might have so it just pulls resources of you know possible responses to situations you might be in and I think that's where it's maybe going to benefit us so yeah yeah coming around the corner I mean it's here I use it now to ask you questions and carry on a conversation with it you know my car went to hell so I had questions about how to fix something and I just kept asking a different questions still didn't get an answer to what I was looking for but I got I zeroed in on a few things which was kind of cool but it gave me some really good information that or any other were any of them um it's time to buy a new car uh I'm almost to that point but it might be it's the timing chain issue maybe oh yeah it's time to buy a new car maybe I don't know yet we don't they didn't they can't check with them whatever long freaking story but uh yeah I gotta love it so anyway but yeah AI it's here just get used to it and use it wisely Dan did you see any other questions that you wanted to jump in with on that oh golly you had a ton of them in there I know that's you could just point at one yeah I'm curious what this is anybody know what this one is I've never heard of this I don't know what that is neither do I I'll look that up in the background there you go I didn't notice that one um yeah that's cool uh [Music] where'd the questions go one more let's see how have you balance the demands of leadership with other responsibilities and priorities in your life such as family hobbies and other interests well I think uh if you uh I'm sure you've heard the analogy before of you know you have the big rocks you have the medium rocks you have the little box and if you took all the little rocks and you poured them into like this one big you know you have a well Pretend This doesn't have water in it but if I poured all little rocks in here and then tried to fit big rocks in I the big rocks would never fit so many big rocks would be left out and the medium rocks probably wouldn't but they wouldn't all fit so what you would want to do you know put the big rocks in then the medium and then start filling in with the little shake it a little bit add a little bit more shake it type of thing so that all of the pieces kind of come into play well what are your big rocks what are those things that are really important to you to prioritize first to you so you know sometimes you might need to work on a weekend depending upon what that project is is it every weekend or is it one of those things where you say no I do my best to make sure that from Saturday to Sunday is family time specifically and I keep work Monday through Friday maybe that's something or you say I don't take phone calls after a certain period of time because that's time I spend with my family my spouse however or I do something for me just as important to that piece I mean my husband is an avid Runner and he gets up at odark 30 to go run before he goes to work so I am not an avid Runner so I do not do that I prioritize sleep but he prioritizes working out for that and that's okay so to me you know I think that that's you you know what's important and you prioritize that and you will feel it when it's a little out of balance and sometimes there might be a little bit of that but if it feels too much you need to back up and reevaluate and make some changes and that's okay cool um we're about out of time so I just want to real quickly um we'll post these links on the website as well but if you're on the page the streaming page on my website Chief experts uh and you scroll down you'll see a few links here one will take you to Jen's website which you can learn a little bit more about her one of the things that you'll find interesting when you get there is she talks about children's books and um which I think is really fascinating but if you dig a Little Deeper uh head over to the uh let's see head over to the uh well here's here's how you get to her show that she does on YouTube the tough tough fish show uh she has her Services listed here so if you she does coaching leadership coaching so uh Jennifer you want to talk about that a little bit real quick sure sure um so one of the things I've done in my business is also a developmental edit so helping people with their message with their communication predominantly it's been in books from a developmental edit but it's the same premise of communicating but with coaching I really believe in helping people to own their space at the table to remember their value to remember what they have to the that they that they have and to let that inner greatness shine let that integrate this show up because when you do that everyone benefits your clients benefit your customers benefit your family and your friends benefit and you do because you feel that joy and that will shine through in your work and so I I love working with people to help them do that and you do offer a 30-minute free consultation absolutely so absolutely if you're looking for some help on your leadership skills or in your company reach out to Jennifer that'd be awesome you can also check out Jennifer's book it's on YouTube it's uh you can get it in Kindle audiobook and paperback which I've gotten the audiobook and paperback which is a really good way to go um good book good read a nice little workbook to have around when you want to hone your leadership skills so I highly recommend checking that out and let's see what else did I have on my site here at work with Jen book learn more about her so so there you go uh Jennifer thank you very much for being here um actually we do have four minutes left for Pete's sake we don't have to yeah Bill thank you for having me we're usually running long so you know now I know this is really odd for us to um Kevin you had mentioned something earlier about the friend you had with the concern about taking a risk and uh one of the things that you know if you think about it every time in leadership have you always been successful has every single thing that you've ever done been successful absolutely not I mean I cannot tell you how many times I've tried something and it has not panned out it did not work out well at all that happened to me once yeah yeah I realized it probably was once this morning I would tell you that um there is a there's a secret handshake known only among those of us who have fallen cleared through the floor so failure is not necessarily A Bad Thing failure failure uh to achieve whatever or failure in your career whatever those are just stepping stones you know those are things to overcome and you will be greater on the other side absolutely it's one of those that when you view it as perhaps that was an experiment and that didn't work and then it's moving you towards where you're supposed to be that's a good thing and that you want to embrace that and that's okay Norman thank you um thank you Norman Renee this is a good comment by the way I'm just going to mention this so if you're on Facebook um if you want your name to show up on the the question uh screen you do have to approve that and that's what Renee is mentioning here you don't have to do that on YouTube or LinkedIn someone said hi at uh 12 55 and it shows up to us only as Facebook user yeah I'm not sure who's that guy but we did try to say hi back hi Facebook hi Facebook user we're trying to lead you down the right path here so the leadership uh Motif here Renee final comments final thoughts that was muted I was talking well we missed those final thoughts I feel like we could do this whole topic again another time because I had plenty to talk about in that segment and so we just burn up the clock but um yeah I I had a full career in in project management and across different Industries so um and you know and I Grew From from job to job and I had New Perspectives from job to job but um yeah I don't know I could talk about this topic for a while yeah I love leading people I don't really do it anymore I don't have any um you really do people love the way you lead them on the butt cheek architect and so cool so you're leading you don't even know it come on dude I was thinking the same thing so um and then I mean half the show I wasn't paying attention because I was trying to make this stupid squirrel [Laughter] when you finally used it squirrel uh thank you everybody um I really enjoyed the the talk and I hope everybody else did too so thanks for joining us and uh and maybe we can pull off another one of these conversations one day um and maybe gentle join us again maybe we'll just let Renee just ramble on [Laughter] go ahead and say goodbye to everybody bye now bye everybody